Henri Toivosen onnettomuus korsikalla

Henri Toivonen

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Liittynyt
16.3.2023
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If there was a 2nd video showed on French TV in 1986, most likely more people would remember it and secondly the given video would have appeared in digital format to YouTube or other location.

Wanting it doesn't make it real I'm afraid.
Maybe you didn't read the whole topic, where the thing has been discussed completely, and I do find isn't the nicest thing to tell someone "wanting it doesn't make it real"
Given that I did Reach the person who told in the video and it confirmed.
Given that it is quoted in an article, by David Evans (that I've tried to reach, without success)

Given this podcast here, that I think is recorded before the article with the Evans quote, minute 36:00 onwards

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/podcast-looking-back-on-henri-toivonen/
 

AnttiL

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There's a lot down to interpretations, we cannot say for fact a second video exists, and cannot say it doesn't exist.
 

Henri Toivonen

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16.3.2023
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Sorry, but the thing’s already been discussed. As i did say before, i did reached Tedeschini some time ago and he confirmed the video we’re talking about is not the one you can find on YouTube. Fact. Then, Evans in this podcast talks about ‘the existance’ of a footage that clearly can not be the one there’s on YouTube, later in an article says he has seen this footage (but i’ve tried to Reach him to talk about it, without success). But ok, no problem at all

let’s continue in celebrating the greatest rally driver of all time IMHO
 

AnttiL

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Sorry, but the thing’s already been discussed. As i did say before, i did reached Tedeschini some time ago and he confirmed the video we’re talking about is not the one you can find on YouTube. Fact. Then, Evans in this podcast talks about ‘the existance’ of a footage that clearly can not be the one there’s on YouTube, later in an article says he has seen this footage (but i’ve tried to Reach him to talk about it, without success). But ok, no problem at all

let’s continue in celebrating the greatest rally driver of all time IMHO
I know and I appreciate what you have done but if Tedeschini has seen some video in 1986 and then later something else in 2013 on YouTube, he might remember it differently, his brain might have created a false memory of a different video. And Evans might just repeat what someone else tells him.

For example how Markku Alen and Ilkka Kivimäki have described the accident confirms they remember it incorrectly. They have said they were the first on the scene although they were the fifth car on the road and they have said the front of the car was on the level of the road and the car was intact. In this kind of a traumatic situation the brain can alter memories to protect it.

But still, I don't claim anything absolutely, just saying that even these claims cannot be verified 100%.
 

Bullet Tooth Tony

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24.9.2016
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I know and I appreciate what you have done but if Tedeschini has seen some video in 1986 and then later something else in 2013 on YouTube, he might remember it differently, his brain might have created a false memory of a different video. And Evans might just repeat what someone else tells him.

For example how Markku Alen and Ilkka Kivimäki have described the accident confirms they remember it incorrectly. They have said they were the first on the scene although they were the fifth car on the road and they have said the front of the car was on the level of the road and the car was intact. In this kind of a traumatic situation the brain can alter memories to protect it.

But still, I don't claim anything absolutely, just saying that even these claims cannot be verified 100%.
Amen.
 

Bullet Tooth Tony

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Maybe you didn't read the whole topic, where the thing has been discussed completely, and I do find isn't the nicest thing to tell someone "wanting it doesn't make it real"
Given that I did Reach the person who told in the video and it confirmed.
Given that it is quoted in an article, by David Evans (that I've tried to reach, without success)

Given this podcast here, that I think is recorded before the article with the Evans quote, minute 36:00 onwards

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/podcast-looking-back-on-henri-toivonen/

Sorry for being impolite. It was not my purpose.

Given the fact existence of a 2nd video has really not been confirmed I tend to think the best approach is to reason with most likely scenarios.

Thus should there be another footage of the accident which even was televised back in the day we would definitely be aware of it.
 
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Henri Toivonen

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16.3.2023
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Sorry for being impolite. It was not my purpose.

Given the fact existence of a 2nd video has really not been confirmed I tend to think the best approach is to reason with most likely scenarios.

Thus should there be another footage of the accident which even was televised back in the day we would definitely be aware of it.
no problem at all, the topic has been beautiful and, above all, very passionate about the tragic ending of two beloved person.
I try to post a Tuttorally magazine page scan about it, later today or tomorrow ;)
 

simc

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28.6.2013
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Google translation. The side lining is by me as it's probably the targeted caption.
But wasn't the Youtube video originally shown in French television?

14.58 I send, it proceeds for a hundred meters and
meets some spectators. He stops the 205 T16 and
asks if Toivonen has already passed by: he
receives a negative answer. Only then does he
understand what is happening: he retraces his
steps and together with the navigator Faulille tries to
approach the burning car with a fire
extinguisher, but everything proves useless.
Meanwhile Biasion arrives and he too can't help
but notice the tragedy that has befallen his poor colleagues.
In the meantime, with only five cars entering
the test, the timed section was interrupted.

15h14': the first SAMU emergency vehicles
arrive under the orders of Colonel Battesti, but all
that remains of the Delta S4 is the chassis and
the two pilots, a few, miserable remains.

From initial information we learn that Toivonen
and Cresto's Delta S4, before going off the road,
appears to have hit a small parapet and knocked
down a tree before flying down and catching fire.
The explosion is certainly due to the enormous
heat emanating from the Turbo KKK mounted on
the S4 and the power of the compressor; then the petrol
from the tank (located very close to the turbo) did the rest.
Ninni Russo was also a helpless witness to the
tragedy, following the race from above with a
helicopter (but without the possibility of
providing assistance because aerial assistance
was prohibited by the International Federation,
African competitions excluded), with sports
management duties. «I don't see the pilots, I
don't see the pilots!>> Ninni shouts over the
radio <<Tell Biasion to slow down, because there's
fire! We are attempting a landing." But when the
helicopter descends, the ground around it is
already burned and the carcass of the Lancia
can barely be seen. Later Balestre and some
officials from the French Federation and the
race management also arrive on site. It is
decided to cancel this damned eighteenth special,
not to run the last two stages of the stage
and to have the remaining competitors to reach
the end of the stage in Calvi, from
where the third and final stage of the Tour de
Corse will start the following day.

As a sign of mourning, Lancia will withdraw the
two cars remaining in the race, the number 1 of
Alen-Kiwimaki and the number 6 of Biasion-Siviero.
|| Among the many testimonies heard and collected immediately
|| after the accident, two seem more interesting than
|| many others. The first, from a Court
|| policeman who was following the special from
|| the top of Col d'Ominanda («I saw the car tackle
|| the stretch before that curve in a normal way, but then
|| I no longer saw it appear at the end of the curve
|| itself. I then thought of a mechanical failure, but
|| immediately afterwards I clearly heard an
|| explosion and saw black smoke rising between the
|| explosion and when I saw the column of
|| smoke. of. About a minute later Saby's car
|| arrived>») and another belonging to a French
|| television assistant, who also filmed the moment
|| of the accident, albeit from far away (<<It seemed
|| to me that Toivonen made strange gestures with
|| his arm, as if he wanted to chase away an
|| insect from inside the passenger
|| compartment").


16.30: the poor remains of the two Lancia
pilots are taken to the Corte hospital and
mercifully recomposed. A little later, Dr.
Benigno Bartoletti proceeds to identify his two
unfortunate runners.

In the evening, Henri Toivonen's wife and her
family and Sergio Cresto's girlfriend arrived in
Ajaccio.

------------------------

A series of terrible coincidences "link" together the disasters
that deprived the world of rallying of Attilio
Bettega, Henri Toivonen and Sergio Cresto.
First of all, the date of the accident (2 May), the
place (Corsica), the race number (for both the
car is marked with four). But that's not all: in
this tragic game of fate, other analogies were
intertwined in the sporting lives of the
missing champions.

Attilio and Henri teamed with Cresto; both the
Venetian and the Finn had reached the podium in
the Costa Smeralda before the tragic Tour de
Corse, one placing second, the other in flames.
Their destinies were once again linked by the
serious accident in which they had
encountered on the roads of Sardinia: in '84,
Bettega had escaped unharmed from a bad off-road
accident during the second special test, while
Perissinot had fractured his legs; a year later
Toivonen fractured a vertebra on the Isuledda.

And beyond their sporting curriculum so
intimately intertwined with disconcerting coincidences,
there is also a family detail: they both left two
children, Alessandro and Angela Bettega,
orphans; Markku and Arla, Toivonen.
 

Henri Toivonen

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16.3.2023
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exactly (just one thing, the correct translation is "...as he was trying to expel an insect from inside the car")

The argument of footage has also already been discussed in some way at the beginning of the topic, and I think that some comments from page 9 onwards also referred to the different video. And even the footage from the well know video seems to be edited and cutted.
 
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DC

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exactly (just one thing, the correct translation is "...as he was trying to expel an insect from inside the car")

The argument of footage has also already been discussed in some way at the beginning of the topic, and I think that some comments from page 9 onwards also referred to the different video. And even the footage from the well know video seems to be edited and cutted.
While I'm not saying that the alleged second video couldn't exist, I don't find anything in the article that would confirm the existence. To me the comment from "French television assistant" seems to be second-hand at best, who knows what's been lost in translation. Btw, Henri's son is listed in the article as "Markku" which is incorrect. Not a big thing, sure, but it doesn't make me feel like the rest of the story would be fundamentally correct either.

And what comes to the video we've all seen... yes, it might be cut and edited but it just as well might be not.
 
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Ayrton-Ana

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even the footage from the well know video seems to be edited and cutted.
I can't be 100% sure of course, but I'm afraid the most likely scenario is that the cameraman simply missed the beginning of the accident.

If you look at the beginning of the accident video, the camera moves quickly upwards in the first few frames. And if you look at the first frame, the road is only visible at the very top of the picture, most of the picture is filled by the green mountainside below the road level. It's possible that the car caught the cameraman little bit by surprise, or he wasn't originally planning to film that section of the road. But then he saw the car going off the road and quickly lifted his camera and started recording in the middle of that movement.

If some extra footage would have been deliberately cut from the beginning, I would expect to see horizontal, left-to-right movement in the first few frames. Instead, as the video starts there's a quick vertical camera movement and only very little horizontal movement, which to me gives the impression that the camera hasn't been following the car before the video starts.
 

Henri Toivonen

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16.3.2023
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While I'm not saying that the alleged second video couldn't exist, I don't find anything in the article that would confirm the existence. To me the comment from "French television assistant" seems to be second-hand at best, who knows what's been lost in translation. Btw, Henri's son is listed in the article as "Markku" which is incorrect. Not a big thing, sure, but it doesn't make me feel like the rest of the story would be fundamentally correct either.

And what comes to the video we've all seen... yes, it might be cut and edited but it just as well might be not.
Sorry, but I can't see the point. We've talked (ps, I'm reading the whole topic again and the details of different footage of the accident are discussed in several pages) about the argument, at first the problem was "ok it's been almost 40 years bla bla". Ok. Now I do post an article published days after the tragedy... and the thing is "second best"? The name of Henri's son is obviously a slight misprint, here we're not talking about a mistake about a letter or a name, we're talking about witnesses and a description on what they did told about what they did see. I've posted the page not because this adds something more about the story we're all passionate about, I've posted it because Tedeschini told something, and the fact that some French tv reporter recorded the accident is reported in that magazine also. And I can't see how it could be the same, given what LT told and the video it's available on YouTube it's not the same for sure, because you can't see the car quite at all. And... I can't forget about the fact that if you release in public that kind of information, and above all in some sensible case, you have to have sources, if someone call you to explain about that (and here we had 2 people that died), and given it's a Magazine, not some sort of "I've heard at a bar from someone I don't even know", I think they were quite sure.
 
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DC

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Sorry, but I can't see the point. We've talked (ps, I'm reading the whole topic again and the details of different footage of the accident are discussed in several pages) about the argument, at first the problem was "ok it's been almost 40 years bla bla". Ok. Now I do post an article published days after the tragedy... and the thing is "second best"? The name of Henri's son is obviously a slight misprint, here we're not talking about a mistake about a letter or a name, we're talking about witnesses and a description on what they did told about what they did see. I've posted the page not because this adds something more about the story we're all passionate about, I've posted it because Tedeschini told something, and the fact that some French tv reporter recorded the accident is reported in that magazine also. And I can't see how it could be the same, given what LT told and the video it's available on YouTube it's not the same for sure, because you can't see the car quite at all. And... I can't forget about the fact that if you release in public that kind of information, and above all in some sensible case, you have to have sources, if someone call you to explain about that (and here we had 2 people that died), and given it's a Magazine, not some sort of "I've heard at a bar from someone I don't even know", I think they were quite sure.
No offence, as previously mentioned we're talking about something (the existence or non-existence of the alleged second video) that can't be confirmed as a fact. Based on the material available it is not a fact that whatever that French TV reporter/assistant recorded wouldn't be the exact same video we've seen on youtube. With "second-hand" I meant that the description of the events from that reporter/assistant didn't seem to have come directly from the source her/himself. Also the doubts concerning Tedeschini's comments that can be found on the previous messages are well reasoned, so no need to go any further with that.
But please don't get this wrong, the article itself is very interesting - thanks a lot for sharing it.
 

Henri Toivonen

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16.3.2023
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33
No offence, as previously mentioned we're talking about something (the existence or non-existence of the alleged second video) that can't be confirmed as a fact. Based on the material available it is not a fact that whatever that French TV reporter/assistant recorded wouldn't be the exact same video we've seen on youtube. With "second-hand" I meant that the description of the events from that reporter/assistant didn't seem to have come directly from the source her/himself. Also the doubts concerning Tedeschini's comments that can be found on the previous messages are well reasoned, so no need to go any further with that.
But please don't get this wrong, the article itself is very interesting - thanks a lot for sharing it.
no problem at all, as i said we’re all passionate about the topic and it’s easy to misread that passion in something it’s not :)
 

Henri Toivonen

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16.3.2023
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33
here an interview to the great Michelle Mouton, at 4:28 onwards the well known video but it seem a little bit better quality here. It can be clearly seen a piece flying on the left

watch
 
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