exHakkinen
Banned
- Liittynyt
- 14.2.2009
- Viestit
- 32
Henri Toivonen on tavallaan oman elämänsä olli tai bystöl nytkun noi MM-Liberecit on menossa.
Maailman paras rallikuski?
- Viestiketjun aloittaja Tose
- Aloituspäivämäärä
Kyllä
illi
Well-known member
- Liittynyt
- 25.1.2009
- Viestit
- 368
olisi hauska tietää mihin,pohdittaessa maailman parasta rallikuskia,sijoittuu erik carlsson.on tietysti mahdollista että nuoremmat eivät häntä muista lainkaan.mies joka "vajaatahtisella"teki uskomattomia urotekoja.tutustukaa ennenkuin muodostatte mielipidettä"maailman parhaasta rallikuskista".aloittakaa vaikka wikipediasta.
super_1600
Well-known member
- Liittynyt
- 22.8.2005
- Viestit
- 362
Ei
illi
Well-known member
- Liittynyt
- 25.1.2009
- Viestit
- 368
mukavaa kun törmää myönteiseen asenteeseen.
IceManFani
Tunari
Valitettavasti se on se Loebin Sebi. 
Eihän mulla toki ole mitään ko. jätkää vastaan, vois vaan pikkuhiljaa luopua siitä kruunustaan Suomalaisten hyväks.
Eihän mulla toki ole mitään ko. jätkää vastaan, vois vaan pikkuhiljaa luopua siitä kruunustaan Suomalaisten hyväks. anti-lag
enabled
- Liittynyt
- 14.3.2009
- Viestit
- 1395
Oma top 5-lista:
Juha Kankkunen: Ehdoton ykkösnimi. Kuten täälläkin jo mainittu, pitkä ja menestyksekäs ura monessa tallissa monella aikakaudella. Autonkehittäjänä paras. Ehkäpä Suomen ralliautoilun ikoni.
Markku Alen: Tulinen taistelija ja karismaattinen persoona. Erittäin nopeaa ja aggressiivista ajoa, myös asvaltilla. Pidin hänen tyylistään.
Henri Toivonen: Samat sanat kuin Markun kohdalla. Lisäksi harva (tuskin kukaan muu) kuljettaja on noin lahjakas mitä Henkka oli, rallissa ja radalla.
Carlos Sainz: Suurajoissa pärjäsi heti kokeneemmille. Ura oli pitkä ja hän pysyi aivan loppuun saakka huipulla. Erittäin tunnollinen autontestaaja.
Tommi Mäkinen: Oli yleensä parhaimmillaan huonoissa olosuhteissa ja voitti useasti heti seuraavan kilpailun rajun ulosajon jälkeen. Erittäin kova kilpailija kaksintaistelutilanteissa.
Listan ulkopuolelta erityismaininta Kenneth Erikssonille. Ei ehkä nopeimpien joukossa aikoinaan, mutta erittäin nätisti hän autoaan toi.. Ajoi myös paljon pelkästään yhdellä kädellä. Hyvin taitava autonkäsittelijä.
Myös Colin McRae on pakko mainita. Ei antanut koskaan periksi, aina 110 lasissa. Tiellä pysyessään mielestäni 90-luvun nopein kuljettaja.
Juha Kankkunen: Ehdoton ykkösnimi. Kuten täälläkin jo mainittu, pitkä ja menestyksekäs ura monessa tallissa monella aikakaudella. Autonkehittäjänä paras. Ehkäpä Suomen ralliautoilun ikoni.
Markku Alen: Tulinen taistelija ja karismaattinen persoona. Erittäin nopeaa ja aggressiivista ajoa, myös asvaltilla. Pidin hänen tyylistään.
Henri Toivonen: Samat sanat kuin Markun kohdalla. Lisäksi harva (tuskin kukaan muu) kuljettaja on noin lahjakas mitä Henkka oli, rallissa ja radalla.
Carlos Sainz: Suurajoissa pärjäsi heti kokeneemmille. Ura oli pitkä ja hän pysyi aivan loppuun saakka huipulla. Erittäin tunnollinen autontestaaja.
Tommi Mäkinen: Oli yleensä parhaimmillaan huonoissa olosuhteissa ja voitti useasti heti seuraavan kilpailun rajun ulosajon jälkeen. Erittäin kova kilpailija kaksintaistelutilanteissa.
Listan ulkopuolelta erityismaininta Kenneth Erikssonille. Ei ehkä nopeimpien joukossa aikoinaan, mutta erittäin nätisti hän autoaan toi.. Ajoi myös paljon pelkästään yhdellä kädellä. Hyvin taitava autonkäsittelijä.
Myös Colin McRae on pakko mainita. Ei antanut koskaan periksi, aina 110 lasissa. Tiellä pysyessään mielestäni 90-luvun nopein kuljettaja.
Viimeksi muokattu:
Latexi
New member
- Liittynyt
- 27.5.2009
- Viestit
- 2
Vaikea, käytännössä mahdoton verrata eri aikakausien parhaita, kun ovat säännöt ja autot muuttuneet niin paljon, ja kaiken lisäksi ennen oli huomattavasti nykyistä kovempi taso, kun oli 5-6 miestä, jotka pystyivät taistelemaan voitoista ja mestaruuksista eivätkä aina edes ajaneet kaikkia kisoja, mutta listataan nyt viisi nimeä (ei mitenkään järjestyksessä) ja pienet perustelut:
-Juha Kankkunen: Voitti neljä maailmanmestaruutta kolmella eri automerkillä ja pärjäsi aina, oli alla millainen menopeli tahansa. Yksi parhaita autonkehittäjiä sarjan historiassa, ei voinut olla sattumaa, että monet autot, jotka olivat täysiä susia ennen Juhan tuloa talliin, alkoivat sen jälkeen toimia. Voittoja 14 vuoden ajalta (ja vielä nelikymppisenä viiden voitottoman vuoden jälkeen) niin A- kuin B-ryhmäläiselläkin kuin myös WRC:llä.
-Tommi Mäkinen: Neljä peräkkäistä mestaruutta on saavutus, johon ei ihan kuka tahansa pysty, autourheilussa hänen lisäkseen siihen ovat pystyneet vain Fangio, Schumacher ja Loeb. Parhaimmillaan suvereeni myös asvaltilla.
-Sebastien Loeb: Täytyy myöntää, että taso ei ole nykyään läheskään yhtä kova kuin esim. Kankkusen ja Mäkisen aikoihin, mutta ei tuollaisiin ennätyksiin ihan kuka tahansa pysty. Aloitti ajamisen vasta aikuisiällä telinevoimistelun lopetettuaan, joten kyseessä täytyy olla poikkeuksellinen lahjakkuus.
-Carlos Sainz: Pitkä ja hieno ura useammalla automerkillä ja pystyi vielä päälle nelikymppisenäkin taistelemaan mestaruudesta Loebia ja Solbergia vastaan 2003.
-Marcus Grönholm: Seitsemän Jyväskylän voittoa (olisi tullut kahdeksan ilman teknistä vikaa 2003) on suoritus, johon on hänen lisäkseen pystynyt vain Hannu Mikkola, joka tosin tarvitsi samaan voittomäärään kolme vuosikymmentä, kun taas Grönholm ajoi kaikki voitot 2000-luvulla.
-Juha Kankkunen: Voitti neljä maailmanmestaruutta kolmella eri automerkillä ja pärjäsi aina, oli alla millainen menopeli tahansa. Yksi parhaita autonkehittäjiä sarjan historiassa, ei voinut olla sattumaa, että monet autot, jotka olivat täysiä susia ennen Juhan tuloa talliin, alkoivat sen jälkeen toimia. Voittoja 14 vuoden ajalta (ja vielä nelikymppisenä viiden voitottoman vuoden jälkeen) niin A- kuin B-ryhmäläiselläkin kuin myös WRC:llä.
-Tommi Mäkinen: Neljä peräkkäistä mestaruutta on saavutus, johon ei ihan kuka tahansa pysty, autourheilussa hänen lisäkseen siihen ovat pystyneet vain Fangio, Schumacher ja Loeb. Parhaimmillaan suvereeni myös asvaltilla.
-Sebastien Loeb: Täytyy myöntää, että taso ei ole nykyään läheskään yhtä kova kuin esim. Kankkusen ja Mäkisen aikoihin, mutta ei tuollaisiin ennätyksiin ihan kuka tahansa pysty. Aloitti ajamisen vasta aikuisiällä telinevoimistelun lopetettuaan, joten kyseessä täytyy olla poikkeuksellinen lahjakkuus.
-Carlos Sainz: Pitkä ja hieno ura useammalla automerkillä ja pystyi vielä päälle nelikymppisenäkin taistelemaan mestaruudesta Loebia ja Solbergia vastaan 2003.
-Marcus Grönholm: Seitsemän Jyväskylän voittoa (olisi tullut kahdeksan ilman teknistä vikaa 2003) on suoritus, johon on hänen lisäkseen pystynyt vain Hannu Mikkola, joka tosin tarvitsi samaan voittomäärään kolme vuosikymmentä, kun taas Grönholm ajoi kaikki voitot 2000-luvulla.
toozi
Well-known member
- Liittynyt
- 19.1.2006
- Viestit
- 383
Laitetaan nämä nyt vaikka tähän ketjuun jos jotakuta kiinnostaa lukea/eikä ole sattunut aiemmin silmiin. Rally-info.com sivuston foorumilta poimittuja Chris b:n (Chris Biewer?) luonnehdintoja muutamasta kuljettajasta, mukana myös muutama hauska tarina...
Nää on vähän ehkä sekavasti leikattu alkuperäisestä ketjusta, jonka voi lukea täältä: http://www.rallye-info.com/forum.asp?sid=0&boardid=1&action=thread&threadid=6665&new=15&page=1
Stig Blomqvist:
Stig Blomqvist is a different phenomenon. Like Björn Waldegaard, Stig has entered for the Safari in 6 weeks. But for Stig it is not just fun. Well, I guess it is fun, but he competed in serious championships until nearly 60years of age, competing in the PWRC even still in 2003, he was a 3 driver for the Skoda works team in 2002! Many young fans may have laughed about the old mans -not that- poor results, not realising his rally career dates back more than 30years!!!! Not only his rally career, in 1971 he won Sweden, 1000 Lakes Finland and RAC! But there is another quality about Stig. A quality which very likely was the reason why for a long time he didnt stand in the spot lights as much as Björn and Hannu his loyalty. Saab was the team that gave him his international break through in around 1969, 1970 and teams reportedly like Ford, Fiat, Lancia were queueing for him, but Stig wouldnt move. Never mind how far SWaab fell behind the opposition, Saab needed to close down their motorsport department in 1981 before Stig would drive for anyone else! Stig is reported to be the inventor of left foot braking, and no doubt he was not only fast but very, very spectacular in FWD Saabs. But despite him driving for Saab for over a decade, his adoptability was equally as unbelievable as his loyalty He won in FWD Saabs, in Sweden 1979 he wrote history with the first turbo victory at WRC level, an engine that needs a different driving style, more playing with torque rather than applying raw aggression. Then he joined Talbot, RWD, again very different driving style and played a key role in Talbot winning the makes title 1981. Then he moved to Audi, 4x4, again very different driving style, and in that car he became WRChamp 1984! He may have looked slow at times in his latest attempts at WRC level, but maybe he was not in the right car. Mind you, Swedish Rally 2004 he was 3rd groupN, Swedish 2005 he was 4th groupN. Safari 2005 in a RWD Escort he was 2nd overall, beating people like i.e. Juha Kankkunen in a Datsun 240Z on near every stage. Now Stig is 61 years old, has entered Safari 2007 in a RWD Escort and I bet he will be loving it while not hanging about!
Henri Toivonen:
I do believe Henri Toivonen is a different dimension in this question. Without wishing to take anything away from Markko, Markko had his chances while Henri did not. We shouldnt forget, Henri made a name for himself finishing 5th overall in Finland 1977 in a Talbot Avenger group1 - group1 means this was a groupN car, but a real groupN, not like Subaru groupN today, and he just turned 21 years that moment! He hit the scene with a bang. He then got chances, not least as a test driver for Talbot. When Henri won the RAC 1980, he was 24 years and 3months old - this is to the day, nearly 3 decades later and despite a change of attitude from experience towards youth by team managers helping guys as Latvala, Mikkelsen, even today this makes Henri the youngest winner at WRC level!
Unfortunately after Talbot went on a break for developping the 205 T16, Henri didnt have the patience to hang on and wait for the 205 T16, he signed a deal with Rothmans and became a N°2 shadow driver for Walter Röhrl at Opel 1982. In 1983 he was maybe less in the shadow when Röhrl moved on, but the Manta 400 never was a winning concept against Audi and Lancia in 1983. The weight lies on the comment that Henri had a contract with Rothmans - not with Opel! This means when the Opel team fell apart in 1984, he had offers from Peugeot and from Lancia, but he couldnt take them. Rothmans insisted Henri had a waterproof contract, never mind they did not have a WRC program. Hence in 1984 Henri spent most of his time in Porsches, wasting his talent at ERC events. When he then for the first time since 1981 he was sitting in a competitive car in a WRC program, it was 1986, the year he had his fatal crash.
If I remember right even in the Opels he was faster than Vatanen in the Manta, on a couple of events he was ahead of Röhrl in the Ascona, but what can you do if you only do 4 WRC starts and your team mate does 12 Opel sent him into the BRC instead.
Meaning in difference to Markko, whatever car you gave to Henri he was mindblowingly quick, only in difference to Markko Henri became a victim of bureaucratics when his career was meant to prosper.
Let me finish this off with one of those funny old stories I like. In my active days in the Peugeot Cup I got to deal with Talbot Sport - turn Peugeot Sport UK boss Des ODell. Des was the man who discovered Henri. And Des had wonderful stories to tell who Henri Toivonen was
Des ODell story 1
He signed an option with Henri, using him as test driver too, after his 5th in a road going Talbot Avenger in Finland 77. Only a year later Henri was handed a Talbot Sunbeam for RAC 1978 and finished an amazing 9th overall. This would have been impressive enough for a 22year old in a brand sparkling new model of car, only this was no Lotus but a shagged out TI 1600cc test car with some 150BHP! And still this guy is only 22years old, no experienced car developper for sure. Hence for 1979 Des made a contract with Henri, rented him out to Ford and made another contract with old fox Tony Pond to develop the new Sunbeam Lotus. In Des words "Henris Fords stayed in one piece and Pond wrote off one Sunbeam after the other, this was exactly vice versa to what I had in my mind!"
Des ODell story 2
Always des regarded Henri as one amazingly adaptable driver. It was for Henri in San Remo 1981 that Talbot won the makes title. In that event things started badly for Talbot. The tyres they ordered didnt work, the set up was wrong, both drivers complained about handling and when Guy Frèquelins engine blew Guy seemed releaved! Then the nightmare was made perfect when Henri Toivonen rolled his Sunbeam so badly, you only could get in and out through the missing windscreen, the whole body was twisted and in Des words "This was no car, it was a banana!" Henri shrugged his shoulders, commented "It understeers in left hand bends, it oversteers in right hand bends, this is no worse than before, its just a bit more fun in right handers", and this guy went on winning stages with a banana! This is totally crazy, but driving this banana Henri came 2nd overall, beaten only by Moutons Quattro, meaning he was fastest 2WD too - with this result, which only Henri could do under these circumstances, Talbot was the 1981 makes WRChampions!
Hope you enjoy all these crazy stories....
When he then for the first time since 1981 he was sitting in a competitive car in a WRC program, it was 1986, the year he had his fatal crash."
Yes I am ignoring the Lancia Rally here. But I said he was mindblowingly fast in everything with wheels. Well, here is that story then:
Portugal 1984, Cesare Fiorio was desperate to get Henri into a Lancia. Rothmans insisted on their ERC program with Porsche, but after long hard discussions allowed a one-off. So Portugal 1984, Henri has never competed in a mid-engined car, he never got any testing in the car, he had Lancia 037 experienced team mates as Markku Alen, Attilio Bettega, Massimo Biasion, and of course there were the Quattros in their best year.... Henri wins SS1, Henri wins SS2, he wins SS3, he wins SS4, he wins SS5, he crashed out on SS6 - to the releave of his team mates I would guess, that was Henri!
Indeed. And why dont we have so many of those crazy stories today Well, I guess partly for the really long and characteristic rallies are missing.
I remember also on that San Remo 1981 scenario, Henri suddenly was quick after the big right hand side impact leading to a roll. When he then came an amazing 2nd, asked at the finish how this was possible, Henri said something on the lines
"Well, the crash maybe improeved the car. Yes, it understeered in left hand bends, it oversteered in right hand bends, but at least now I knew what the car was doing!"
Nää on vähän ehkä sekavasti leikattu alkuperäisestä ketjusta, jonka voi lukea täältä: http://www.rallye-info.com/forum.asp?sid=0&boardid=1&action=thread&threadid=6665&new=15&page=1
Stig Blomqvist:
Stig Blomqvist is a different phenomenon. Like Björn Waldegaard, Stig has entered for the Safari in 6 weeks. But for Stig it is not just fun. Well, I guess it is fun, but he competed in serious championships until nearly 60years of age, competing in the PWRC even still in 2003, he was a 3 driver for the Skoda works team in 2002! Many young fans may have laughed about the old mans -not that- poor results, not realising his rally career dates back more than 30years!!!! Not only his rally career, in 1971 he won Sweden, 1000 Lakes Finland and RAC! But there is another quality about Stig. A quality which very likely was the reason why for a long time he didnt stand in the spot lights as much as Björn and Hannu his loyalty. Saab was the team that gave him his international break through in around 1969, 1970 and teams reportedly like Ford, Fiat, Lancia were queueing for him, but Stig wouldnt move. Never mind how far SWaab fell behind the opposition, Saab needed to close down their motorsport department in 1981 before Stig would drive for anyone else! Stig is reported to be the inventor of left foot braking, and no doubt he was not only fast but very, very spectacular in FWD Saabs. But despite him driving for Saab for over a decade, his adoptability was equally as unbelievable as his loyalty He won in FWD Saabs, in Sweden 1979 he wrote history with the first turbo victory at WRC level, an engine that needs a different driving style, more playing with torque rather than applying raw aggression. Then he joined Talbot, RWD, again very different driving style and played a key role in Talbot winning the makes title 1981. Then he moved to Audi, 4x4, again very different driving style, and in that car he became WRChamp 1984! He may have looked slow at times in his latest attempts at WRC level, but maybe he was not in the right car. Mind you, Swedish Rally 2004 he was 3rd groupN, Swedish 2005 he was 4th groupN. Safari 2005 in a RWD Escort he was 2nd overall, beating people like i.e. Juha Kankkunen in a Datsun 240Z on near every stage. Now Stig is 61 years old, has entered Safari 2007 in a RWD Escort and I bet he will be loving it while not hanging about!
Henri Toivonen:
I do believe Henri Toivonen is a different dimension in this question. Without wishing to take anything away from Markko, Markko had his chances while Henri did not. We shouldnt forget, Henri made a name for himself finishing 5th overall in Finland 1977 in a Talbot Avenger group1 - group1 means this was a groupN car, but a real groupN, not like Subaru groupN today, and he just turned 21 years that moment! He hit the scene with a bang. He then got chances, not least as a test driver for Talbot. When Henri won the RAC 1980, he was 24 years and 3months old - this is to the day, nearly 3 decades later and despite a change of attitude from experience towards youth by team managers helping guys as Latvala, Mikkelsen, even today this makes Henri the youngest winner at WRC level!
Unfortunately after Talbot went on a break for developping the 205 T16, Henri didnt have the patience to hang on and wait for the 205 T16, he signed a deal with Rothmans and became a N°2 shadow driver for Walter Röhrl at Opel 1982. In 1983 he was maybe less in the shadow when Röhrl moved on, but the Manta 400 never was a winning concept against Audi and Lancia in 1983. The weight lies on the comment that Henri had a contract with Rothmans - not with Opel! This means when the Opel team fell apart in 1984, he had offers from Peugeot and from Lancia, but he couldnt take them. Rothmans insisted Henri had a waterproof contract, never mind they did not have a WRC program. Hence in 1984 Henri spent most of his time in Porsches, wasting his talent at ERC events. When he then for the first time since 1981 he was sitting in a competitive car in a WRC program, it was 1986, the year he had his fatal crash.
If I remember right even in the Opels he was faster than Vatanen in the Manta, on a couple of events he was ahead of Röhrl in the Ascona, but what can you do if you only do 4 WRC starts and your team mate does 12 Opel sent him into the BRC instead.
Meaning in difference to Markko, whatever car you gave to Henri he was mindblowingly quick, only in difference to Markko Henri became a victim of bureaucratics when his career was meant to prosper.
Let me finish this off with one of those funny old stories I like. In my active days in the Peugeot Cup I got to deal with Talbot Sport - turn Peugeot Sport UK boss Des ODell. Des was the man who discovered Henri. And Des had wonderful stories to tell who Henri Toivonen was
Des ODell story 1
He signed an option with Henri, using him as test driver too, after his 5th in a road going Talbot Avenger in Finland 77. Only a year later Henri was handed a Talbot Sunbeam for RAC 1978 and finished an amazing 9th overall. This would have been impressive enough for a 22year old in a brand sparkling new model of car, only this was no Lotus but a shagged out TI 1600cc test car with some 150BHP! And still this guy is only 22years old, no experienced car developper for sure. Hence for 1979 Des made a contract with Henri, rented him out to Ford and made another contract with old fox Tony Pond to develop the new Sunbeam Lotus. In Des words "Henris Fords stayed in one piece and Pond wrote off one Sunbeam after the other, this was exactly vice versa to what I had in my mind!"
Des ODell story 2
Always des regarded Henri as one amazingly adaptable driver. It was for Henri in San Remo 1981 that Talbot won the makes title. In that event things started badly for Talbot. The tyres they ordered didnt work, the set up was wrong, both drivers complained about handling and when Guy Frèquelins engine blew Guy seemed releaved! Then the nightmare was made perfect when Henri Toivonen rolled his Sunbeam so badly, you only could get in and out through the missing windscreen, the whole body was twisted and in Des words "This was no car, it was a banana!" Henri shrugged his shoulders, commented "It understeers in left hand bends, it oversteers in right hand bends, this is no worse than before, its just a bit more fun in right handers", and this guy went on winning stages with a banana! This is totally crazy, but driving this banana Henri came 2nd overall, beaten only by Moutons Quattro, meaning he was fastest 2WD too - with this result, which only Henri could do under these circumstances, Talbot was the 1981 makes WRChampions!
Hope you enjoy all these crazy stories....
When he then for the first time since 1981 he was sitting in a competitive car in a WRC program, it was 1986, the year he had his fatal crash."
Yes I am ignoring the Lancia Rally here. But I said he was mindblowingly fast in everything with wheels. Well, here is that story then:
Portugal 1984, Cesare Fiorio was desperate to get Henri into a Lancia. Rothmans insisted on their ERC program with Porsche, but after long hard discussions allowed a one-off. So Portugal 1984, Henri has never competed in a mid-engined car, he never got any testing in the car, he had Lancia 037 experienced team mates as Markku Alen, Attilio Bettega, Massimo Biasion, and of course there were the Quattros in their best year.... Henri wins SS1, Henri wins SS2, he wins SS3, he wins SS4, he wins SS5, he crashed out on SS6 - to the releave of his team mates I would guess, that was Henri!
Indeed. And why dont we have so many of those crazy stories today Well, I guess partly for the really long and characteristic rallies are missing.
I remember also on that San Remo 1981 scenario, Henri suddenly was quick after the big right hand side impact leading to a roll. When he then came an amazing 2nd, asked at the finish how this was possible, Henri said something on the lines
"Well, the crash maybe improeved the car. Yes, it understeered in left hand bends, it oversteered in right hand bends, but at least now I knew what the car was doing!"
toozi
Well-known member
- Liittynyt
- 19.1.2006
- Viestit
- 383
ja lisää...
Timo Salonen:
Well, if you love these crazy characterful stories, here is another one. I said on page 1 in this thread:
"Now with more inside I regard Timo Salonen as maybe the man with the most raw talent, but always in the wrong car at the wrong time. Only exception was when Timo turned a surprise signing as Peugeots N°2 in the 205 T16 in 1985. He won the WRChampionship on this, his first chance and in that season won 4 successive WRC events, a record that was unbroken for 20years until Loeb came. But I say this also for a hysterical test driving story that circulated about Timo."
That Timo story that made me wonder about his raw talent is also connected to another crazy character about Timo Salonen: he was the biggest anti-sportsman the sport has ever seen. The driving talent story was this:
So Timo is rescued from uncompetitive, unreliable Nissans into the groupB supercar Peugeot 205 T16. He joins the team first time testing for Monte Carlo 1985. He drives the car to get a first impression. Timo comes back from these first few loops, shakes his head, grabs a mechanic... Mechanic hasn't got his feet properly tucked away as Timo accelerates off onto the test stage. Mechanic closes the door while Timo is already driving, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th gear, mechanic pale wondering what psycho he is sitting alongside, hastly fastens seat belts. Timo fiddles for a cigarette while car is 5th gear over bumps, left right opposite lock, airborn, hard landing, cigarette falls down. While car carries on sliding and flying in 5th gear Timo has his head down, searching for that cigarette, only one hand on the wheel, finds cigarette, lights it, still airborn, opposite lock action, only now Timo starts sorting his seat belts, fastens them, still one hand only on the steering wheel, and sliding and jumping but already nearing end of test stage. Timo inhales more of his cigarette and says "See what I mean, this car is utterly inprecise driving it on the limit!"
Haha, I love this story as proof of natural talent. If you thought Colin McRae looked bored driving a Focus on the limit, Timo Salonen actually was caught smoking a cigarette on a stage he won in the 205 T16 in Argentina 85!
Pentti Airikkala:
Pentti is a funny character, lovely to talk to, he comes up with the weirdest comparisons, he would be a good journalist! I.e. he told me in Finland 2003 about a certain jump "Tried it flat out and eyes like fried eggs!"
Another one of many occasions he made me laugh was when he tried a RWD Sierra Cosworth, then came out with a comment as honest as it was funny "The car feels very nervous, but maybe she is nervous because I am driving her!"
To his career He became British Champion driving a Vauxhall Chevette in the late 1970s. He also had a few WRC starts with this car. His first big result was coming 2nd on the 1000 Lakes FIN 1976 in a private Ford Escort. I also remember a story Walter Röhrl described Pentti as utterly crazy. It was Röhrls first WRChampionship winning year 1980, in New Zealand on one stage Pentti started a minute behind Röhrl, took a whole minute out of him as he caught him, overtook him and then crashed in front of Röhrls eyes!
Penttis career only got a twist to a more regular driver when he joined the Rothmans team for 1981. Hannu Mikkola moved to Audi after 1980, so for 1981 Ari Vatanen was Rothmans 1 driver and David Sutton decided on a mix of experience and youth, the 2nd car was shared between Pentti Airikkala and young Malcolm Wilson. Pentti only got to drive Sweden, Finland and RAC that year but 5th was his worst result!
In 1982 Pentti was then invited to the Mitusbishi works team. But Mitsubishi only had a limited program with an unproven new car, the RWD Lancer Turbo. Nevertheless Pentti finished 3rd and best 2WD in 1000 Lakes 1982. Then it was one-off drives, 1983 and 1984 he did only 1 WRC event all year, both time Finland, 1983 the mid engined Lancia Rally 037, not the best and easiest car for Finland, in 1984 the uncompetitive Nissan Silvia 240RS.
Then it became quiet completely around Pentti. Well he had a Vauxhall BRC program, meaning we saw him on the RAC a few times with a FWD non-turbo Vauxhall Astra GTE, a car that was hardly top10 material in the best hands.
So basically you could say in 1989 Pentti came back after a 7 years break. It was the RAC in the Mitsubishi Galant VR4, a car in its first season and a car that Ari Vatanen had a nightmare season with. And then comes Pentti and wins the RAC outright! Like after a 7years break old Pentti turns a WRC winner! What could have been had he had a drive all those years
He seemed to be a superb car developper too. He seemed to do well in unproven cars and I remember stories from several teams that Pentti helped them immensely with set ups and new ideas.
Which reminds me of the 1988 BRC season, which is equally as funny. Pentti had no drive, he saw that in 1987 several guys were doing well in the BRC with RWD Ford Sierra Cosworth. Pentti remembered Mitsubishi had a Starion Turbo for which they had no use any more. Mitsubishi found the car disappointing, but Pentti thought for BRC against RWD Sierras.... He approached Ralli Arts Andrew Cowan, who replied "Sure you can have it, I have no use for it, it is an utterly useless car". Pentti took it, tested it, changed the whole set up around.... Next there was a story of Andrew Cowan being on a business flight to his bosses in Japan, flight was long and boring, Cowan bought a newspaper and in here he found out Pentti had just won BRC round1 with his useless car! Cant remember round2, but he won round3 in the Starion too! That called Mitsubishi Japan onto the plan, all the sudden their hopeless old Starion -the car had its competition debut over 2 years earlier!- was winning material. But what happened next could today be described as the Toyota F1 syndrom. Too many highly qualified Japanese engineers that wanted to decorate themselves with this success. Wouldnt anyone be excited he suddenly got works support, financiel as well as in engineering They dictated new engineering ideas and new set ups on Pentti. And the more the Japanese fiddled with this car, the worse it got. Pentti said several times "Honestly, by the end of the season this car was completely undriveable and when the season was over it was a releave!" But he won 2 events with a car that Mitsubishi had long given up on, and it seemed the car only worked with Penttis own set up ideas! Well funny and respect to the guy me thinks!
Great stories CB. And Pentti is a terrific sorter of cars, no doubt about that. On this line, one of my fave Pentti stories (direct from the shark’s mouth ) comes from that one-off drive in the 037 in Finland.
So the team are testing in the forests before the event and Pentti is having trouble acclimatising to the car’s nervousness. Actually, it’s a disaster – he has no confidence with it, which is something of a problem on the 1000 Lakes. Anyway they beaver away at it, gradually getting the setup more suited to Pentti’s tastes. By the end of the test session, the car is brilliant – Pentti is supremely happy with it, he’s sure he’s going to win.
Come the event start, the 037 is again all over the place – Pentti reckons it’s basically undriveable. Eventually, he finishes up fifth; Alen finishes third in the first Lancia home.
Now the punchline...
Turns out that Markku drove Pentti’s car after he’d gone home from the test and rather liked the new settings. So much so, in fact, that he paid the mechanics $10,000 to switch the settings over to his car and revert Pentti’s car to the pre-test ones...
The word, I believe, is ‘gamesmanship’...?
(For those who are wondering – yes, Markku and Pentti still get along just fine...)
Timo Salonen:
Well, if you love these crazy characterful stories, here is another one. I said on page 1 in this thread:
"Now with more inside I regard Timo Salonen as maybe the man with the most raw talent, but always in the wrong car at the wrong time. Only exception was when Timo turned a surprise signing as Peugeots N°2 in the 205 T16 in 1985. He won the WRChampionship on this, his first chance and in that season won 4 successive WRC events, a record that was unbroken for 20years until Loeb came. But I say this also for a hysterical test driving story that circulated about Timo."
That Timo story that made me wonder about his raw talent is also connected to another crazy character about Timo Salonen: he was the biggest anti-sportsman the sport has ever seen. The driving talent story was this:
So Timo is rescued from uncompetitive, unreliable Nissans into the groupB supercar Peugeot 205 T16. He joins the team first time testing for Monte Carlo 1985. He drives the car to get a first impression. Timo comes back from these first few loops, shakes his head, grabs a mechanic... Mechanic hasn't got his feet properly tucked away as Timo accelerates off onto the test stage. Mechanic closes the door while Timo is already driving, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th gear, mechanic pale wondering what psycho he is sitting alongside, hastly fastens seat belts. Timo fiddles for a cigarette while car is 5th gear over bumps, left right opposite lock, airborn, hard landing, cigarette falls down. While car carries on sliding and flying in 5th gear Timo has his head down, searching for that cigarette, only one hand on the wheel, finds cigarette, lights it, still airborn, opposite lock action, only now Timo starts sorting his seat belts, fastens them, still one hand only on the steering wheel, and sliding and jumping but already nearing end of test stage. Timo inhales more of his cigarette and says "See what I mean, this car is utterly inprecise driving it on the limit!"
Haha, I love this story as proof of natural talent. If you thought Colin McRae looked bored driving a Focus on the limit, Timo Salonen actually was caught smoking a cigarette on a stage he won in the 205 T16 in Argentina 85!
Pentti Airikkala:
Pentti is a funny character, lovely to talk to, he comes up with the weirdest comparisons, he would be a good journalist! I.e. he told me in Finland 2003 about a certain jump "Tried it flat out and eyes like fried eggs!"
Another one of many occasions he made me laugh was when he tried a RWD Sierra Cosworth, then came out with a comment as honest as it was funny "The car feels very nervous, but maybe she is nervous because I am driving her!"
To his career He became British Champion driving a Vauxhall Chevette in the late 1970s. He also had a few WRC starts with this car. His first big result was coming 2nd on the 1000 Lakes FIN 1976 in a private Ford Escort. I also remember a story Walter Röhrl described Pentti as utterly crazy. It was Röhrls first WRChampionship winning year 1980, in New Zealand on one stage Pentti started a minute behind Röhrl, took a whole minute out of him as he caught him, overtook him and then crashed in front of Röhrls eyes!
Penttis career only got a twist to a more regular driver when he joined the Rothmans team for 1981. Hannu Mikkola moved to Audi after 1980, so for 1981 Ari Vatanen was Rothmans 1 driver and David Sutton decided on a mix of experience and youth, the 2nd car was shared between Pentti Airikkala and young Malcolm Wilson. Pentti only got to drive Sweden, Finland and RAC that year but 5th was his worst result!
In 1982 Pentti was then invited to the Mitusbishi works team. But Mitsubishi only had a limited program with an unproven new car, the RWD Lancer Turbo. Nevertheless Pentti finished 3rd and best 2WD in 1000 Lakes 1982. Then it was one-off drives, 1983 and 1984 he did only 1 WRC event all year, both time Finland, 1983 the mid engined Lancia Rally 037, not the best and easiest car for Finland, in 1984 the uncompetitive Nissan Silvia 240RS.
Then it became quiet completely around Pentti. Well he had a Vauxhall BRC program, meaning we saw him on the RAC a few times with a FWD non-turbo Vauxhall Astra GTE, a car that was hardly top10 material in the best hands.
So basically you could say in 1989 Pentti came back after a 7 years break. It was the RAC in the Mitsubishi Galant VR4, a car in its first season and a car that Ari Vatanen had a nightmare season with. And then comes Pentti and wins the RAC outright! Like after a 7years break old Pentti turns a WRC winner! What could have been had he had a drive all those years
He seemed to be a superb car developper too. He seemed to do well in unproven cars and I remember stories from several teams that Pentti helped them immensely with set ups and new ideas.
Which reminds me of the 1988 BRC season, which is equally as funny. Pentti had no drive, he saw that in 1987 several guys were doing well in the BRC with RWD Ford Sierra Cosworth. Pentti remembered Mitsubishi had a Starion Turbo for which they had no use any more. Mitsubishi found the car disappointing, but Pentti thought for BRC against RWD Sierras.... He approached Ralli Arts Andrew Cowan, who replied "Sure you can have it, I have no use for it, it is an utterly useless car". Pentti took it, tested it, changed the whole set up around.... Next there was a story of Andrew Cowan being on a business flight to his bosses in Japan, flight was long and boring, Cowan bought a newspaper and in here he found out Pentti had just won BRC round1 with his useless car! Cant remember round2, but he won round3 in the Starion too! That called Mitsubishi Japan onto the plan, all the sudden their hopeless old Starion -the car had its competition debut over 2 years earlier!- was winning material. But what happened next could today be described as the Toyota F1 syndrom. Too many highly qualified Japanese engineers that wanted to decorate themselves with this success. Wouldnt anyone be excited he suddenly got works support, financiel as well as in engineering They dictated new engineering ideas and new set ups on Pentti. And the more the Japanese fiddled with this car, the worse it got. Pentti said several times "Honestly, by the end of the season this car was completely undriveable and when the season was over it was a releave!" But he won 2 events with a car that Mitsubishi had long given up on, and it seemed the car only worked with Penttis own set up ideas! Well funny and respect to the guy me thinks!
Great stories CB. And Pentti is a terrific sorter of cars, no doubt about that. On this line, one of my fave Pentti stories (direct from the shark’s mouth
) comes from that one-off drive in the 037 in Finland. So the team are testing in the forests before the event and Pentti is having trouble acclimatising to the car’s nervousness. Actually, it’s a disaster – he has no confidence with it, which is something of a problem on the 1000 Lakes. Anyway they beaver away at it, gradually getting the setup more suited to Pentti’s tastes. By the end of the test session, the car is brilliant – Pentti is supremely happy with it, he’s sure he’s going to win.
Come the event start, the 037 is again all over the place – Pentti reckons it’s basically undriveable. Eventually, he finishes up fifth; Alen finishes third in the first Lancia home.
Now the punchline...
Turns out that Markku drove Pentti’s car after he’d gone home from the test and rather liked the new settings. So much so, in fact, that he paid the mechanics $10,000 to switch the settings over to his car and revert Pentti’s car to the pre-test ones...
The word, I believe, is ‘gamesmanship’...?
(For those who are wondering – yes, Markku and Pentti still get along just fine...)
illi
Well-known member
- Liittynyt
- 25.1.2009
- Viestit
- 368
mäkinen näkyy puuttuvan listalta,nimenomaan TIMO.
Vanha ketju ja mielenkiintoista lukea ihmisten mielipiteitä toissa vuosikymmeneltä
Laitetaan oma Top 10, mutta tätä on kyllä todella vaikea laatia, koska laji on muuttunut niin paljon eri aikakausina kuten formulatkin. Ja itse kun täytän tänä vuonna 30, niin valitettavasti tietoni esim. jostain Rauno Aaltosesta ovat aika ohuet.
1. Loeb: Virheetön, nopea, sopeutuvainen. Tilastot puhuu puolestaan.
2. Ogier: Samat perusteet kuin nimikaimallaan.
3. Kankkunen: Neljä(kö?) mestaruutta ja useammalla autovalmistajalla eri aikakausina
4. Alen: Pisti takavetoisella 037:lla B-ryhmän superautot ajoittain koville, varsinkin asfaltilla. Listalla ehkä hieman korkealla myös siksi että pidän äijän asenteesta hei.
5. Mäkinen: Neljä mestaruutta, hyvä laskelmoimaan milloin kannattaa hyökätä ja milloin tuoda auto hyvällä sijalla maaliin ehjänä. Pärjäsi huipulla kuitenkin vain Mitsulla.
6. Sainz: Hänen urasta en kovin yksityiskohtaisesti tiedä, muuta kuin että vähintään pari mestaruutta ja kymmeniä voittoja löytyy.
7. McRae: Nopea kuin mikä, kunhan auto pysyi tiellä ja varsin suosittu ja karismaattinen hahmo jo eläessään. Yksinkertainen mestari.
8. Mikkola: Pitkä ura ulottuen moneen eri aikakauteen, ja ilmeisen hyvä tekninen ymmärrys/palaute kun kehitti Audia aikoinaan. Yksinkertainen mestari.
9. Vatanen: Vähän niinkuin McRae, mutta henkilökohtaisesti en jostain syystä pidä hänestä erityisemmin tai fanita hyviä suorituksia mitä uraan kylläkin mahtui.
10. Latvala: Köyhän miehen McRae, eli omana aikakautenaan mahdollisesti nopein kuski ns. raa'assa nopeudessa. Liikaa kuitenkin virheitä, ja ennen kaikkea niistä seuranneita tunnesykkyrämykkyröitä, jotka vesittivät mahdollisuudet mestaruuteen. Jotain kuitenkin kertoo se, että ainakin tällä hetkellä on eniten MM-ralleja ajanut kuljettaja.
Erikoismainintana Henri Toivonen, josta on syntynyt mielikuva että hänellä olisi saattanut olla - ja olikin - sitä "raakaa nopeutta" ja paljon. Ja toisena Mouton, eli naiskuski joka ajoi varsin kilpailukykyisesti hirrrmuisten B-ryhmäläisten aikakaudella.
Laitetaan oma Top 10, mutta tätä on kyllä todella vaikea laatia, koska laji on muuttunut niin paljon eri aikakausina kuten formulatkin. Ja itse kun täytän tänä vuonna 30, niin valitettavasti tietoni esim. jostain Rauno Aaltosesta ovat aika ohuet.
1. Loeb: Virheetön, nopea, sopeutuvainen. Tilastot puhuu puolestaan.
2. Ogier: Samat perusteet kuin nimikaimallaan.
3. Kankkunen: Neljä(kö?) mestaruutta ja useammalla autovalmistajalla eri aikakausina
4. Alen: Pisti takavetoisella 037:lla B-ryhmän superautot ajoittain koville, varsinkin asfaltilla. Listalla ehkä hieman korkealla myös siksi että pidän äijän asenteesta hei.
5. Mäkinen: Neljä mestaruutta, hyvä laskelmoimaan milloin kannattaa hyökätä ja milloin tuoda auto hyvällä sijalla maaliin ehjänä. Pärjäsi huipulla kuitenkin vain Mitsulla.
6. Sainz: Hänen urasta en kovin yksityiskohtaisesti tiedä, muuta kuin että vähintään pari mestaruutta ja kymmeniä voittoja löytyy.
7. McRae: Nopea kuin mikä, kunhan auto pysyi tiellä ja varsin suosittu ja karismaattinen hahmo jo eläessään. Yksinkertainen mestari.
8. Mikkola: Pitkä ura ulottuen moneen eri aikakauteen, ja ilmeisen hyvä tekninen ymmärrys/palaute kun kehitti Audia aikoinaan. Yksinkertainen mestari.
9. Vatanen: Vähän niinkuin McRae, mutta henkilökohtaisesti en jostain syystä pidä hänestä erityisemmin tai fanita hyviä suorituksia mitä uraan kylläkin mahtui.
10. Latvala: Köyhän miehen McRae, eli omana aikakautenaan mahdollisesti nopein kuski ns. raa'assa nopeudessa. Liikaa kuitenkin virheitä, ja ennen kaikkea niistä seuranneita tunnesykkyrämykkyröitä, jotka vesittivät mahdollisuudet mestaruuteen. Jotain kuitenkin kertoo se, että ainakin tällä hetkellä on eniten MM-ralleja ajanut kuljettaja.
Erikoismainintana Henri Toivonen, josta on syntynyt mielikuva että hänellä olisi saattanut olla - ja olikin - sitä "raakaa nopeutta" ja paljon. Ja toisena Mouton, eli naiskuski joka ajoi varsin kilpailukykyisesti hirrrmuisten B-ryhmäläisten aikakaudella.
Viimeksi muokattu:
AnttiL
Reittinörtti
https://www.wrc.com/en/news/season-2020/wrc/carlos-sainz-crowned-the-greatest-driver/
Vuosi sitten äänestettiin Sainz kaikkien aikojen parhaaksi wrc.comissa
Vaikeahan sitä on eri aikakausia vertailla. Lisäksi eri asia halutaanko ottaa mukaan myös MM-sarjan ulkopuolisia saavutuksia (Lontoo-Meksiko, Paris-Dakar). Mutta Loebin nostaisin esiin brutaalin ylivoimaisena, Kankkusen taas monitaiturina eri aikakausina ja automerkeillä.
Vuosi sitten äänestettiin Sainz kaikkien aikojen parhaaksi wrc.comissa
Vaikeahan sitä on eri aikakausia vertailla. Lisäksi eri asia halutaanko ottaa mukaan myös MM-sarjan ulkopuolisia saavutuksia (Lontoo-Meksiko, Paris-Dakar). Mutta Loebin nostaisin esiin brutaalin ylivoimaisena, Kankkusen taas monitaiturina eri aikakausina ja automerkeillä.
franz galle
Well-known member
- Liittynyt
- 22.4.2008
- Viestit
- 237
Alle kopioin Makan listan vuodelta 2008.
Top5
Tässä mun mielestä top5mukaanlukien 70-luku:
1. Loeb
2. Kankkunen
2. Röhrl (oli nopea autolla kuin autolla, vain 1 MM, mutta harvoin ajoi täyden sarjan...)
4. Mäkinen
5. Mikkola (4 vuosikymmentä)
Päivitetään:
Ogier ykköseksi ja muut sija alas päin.
Eikä tehdä pidempää ettei vaan se yks 'huippu-urheilija' ala nostaa päätään
Top5
Tässä mun mielestä top5mukaanlukien 70-luku:
1. Loeb
2. Kankkunen
2. Röhrl (oli nopea autolla kuin autolla, vain 1 MM, mutta harvoin ajoi täyden sarjan...)
4. Mäkinen
5. Mikkola (4 vuosikymmentä)
Päivitetään:
Ogier ykköseksi ja muut sija alas päin.
Eikä tehdä pidempää ettei vaan se yks 'huippu-urheilija' ala nostaa päätään